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	Comments on: Guest Blog: Sarah Beach on The Metaphysics of Creativity	</title>
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	<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 23:48:12 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		By: Episode 13: What Are the Metaphysical Implications of Quantum Physics? &#124; The Partially Examined Life &#124; A Philosophy Podcast		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-3041</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Episode 13: What Are the Metaphysical Implications of Quantum Physics? &#124; The Partially Examined Life &#124; A Philosophy Podcast]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 23:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-3041</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Guest Blog: Sarah Beach on The Metaphysics of Creativity [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Guest Blog: Sarah Beach on The Metaphysics of Creativity [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: scribblerworks		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-3010</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[scribblerworks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 17:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-3010</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[VT, I looked it up on Amazon, and it&#039;s out of print, but some vendors have copies.  It might also be in libraries, however, as it was featured in PSYCHOLOGY TODAY back when the book came out (which is how I got on to it in the first place).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VT, I looked it up on Amazon, and it&#8217;s out of print, but some vendors have copies.  It might also be in libraries, however, as it was featured in PSYCHOLOGY TODAY back when the book came out (which is how I got on to it in the first place).</p>
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		<title>
		By: VT		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2996</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2996</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How strange; I could&#039;ve sworn there was more to my comment. Hrm. So here&#039;s the missing bit:

Sarah -- nice guest post! I&#039;ll have to check out Clynes&#039; book. :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How strange; I could&#8217;ve sworn there was more to my comment. Hrm. So here&#8217;s the missing bit:</p>
<p>Sarah &#8212; nice guest post! I&#8217;ll have to check out Clynes&#8217; book. 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: VT		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2995</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:27:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2995</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[On the pro v. amateur issue -- I took myself off the internet for a few days, thinking I&#039;d spend the time painting what *I* wanted, for a change. Yeah, that plan didn&#039;t work out so well. I&#039;ve come to the conclusion that it&#039;s been so long since I didn&#039;t have a deadline looming over me, that I don&#039;t know what to do with myself without one.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the pro v. amateur issue &#8212; I took myself off the internet for a few days, thinking I&#8217;d spend the time painting what *I* wanted, for a change. Yeah, that plan didn&#8217;t work out so well. I&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that it&#8217;s been so long since I didn&#8217;t have a deadline looming over me, that I don&#8217;t know what to do with myself without one.</p>
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		<title>
		By: scribblerworks		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2990</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[scribblerworks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 00:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2990</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wonderful, Allan!

:D

And I do agree with Colleen on the pro/amateur definition.

What I was musing on is that further etherial region where the creator&#039;s passion and personality speak to the audience.  Which, when looked at through Colleen&#039;s clear pro/am lens, has precious little to do with either pro/am or good/bad.  

Heh... at this point, I wander off with my head in the clouds wondering how to pin a whisp down to the ground.  Aren&#039;t the arts fun? :D

But I do recommend Clynes&#039; book!  I think you guys would find it interesting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful, Allan!</p>
<p>😀</p>
<p>And I do agree with Colleen on the pro/amateur definition.</p>
<p>What I was musing on is that further etherial region where the creator&#8217;s passion and personality speak to the audience.  Which, when looked at through Colleen&#8217;s clear pro/am lens, has precious little to do with either pro/am or good/bad.  </p>
<p>Heh&#8230; at this point, I wander off with my head in the clouds wondering how to pin a whisp down to the ground.  Aren&#8217;t the arts fun? 😀</p>
<p>But I do recommend Clynes&#8217; book!  I think you guys would find it interesting.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Colleen		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2989</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2989</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My God! Now that&#039;s editing!!! LOL!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My God! Now that&#8217;s editing!!! LOL!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Allan		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2987</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Allan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 23:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2987</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Or, to cut it down to a sentence: if you can do it to order for pay, you&#039;re a pro; if you can&#039;t, you&#039;re not.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, to cut it down to a sentence: if you can do it to order for pay, you&#8217;re a pro; if you can&#8217;t, you&#8217;re not.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Colleen		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2986</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 19:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2986</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[OK, I have given this a little more consideration. And this is more of a follow up to my email conversation with Sarah than a direct response to her thoughtful post.

People keep conflating good with professional. And they get wrapped around the axle when the obvious is pointed out to them: that the definition of a professional is in the meaning of PROFESSION.

It follows that a person MUST make money at their vocation in order to be a professional. But money has absolutely NOTHING to do with being any good.

Many semi-pros and hobbyists get angry when the obvious - a professional is someone with a PROFESSION - is pointed out to them, because they think that implies their work is no good and that they are unprofessional in their conduct or the quality of their work.

The money you are paid, and how well you exhibit basic craftsmanship skills has nothing to do with whether or not your work is Real Art. It simply means you get paid to perform your craft to the basic standards set by the client.

This then gives many hobbyists and semi-pros the in to make the dig that many professionals produce bad work, and the real mark of good work is passion.

No, it isn&#039;t.

The only mark of good work is the final result.

Many very passionate people produce lousy work, and cannot see past their personal vision. They cannot see what others see.

Many craftsman-like professionals produce bad work, even though they dutifully meet deadlines and are paid very well.

The entire argument around professional versus amateur has more to do with bruised egos than anything else.

Pros remark that fans produce crap, and fans remark that pros produce crap and that fans could do better if they were just given the chance.

No amount of money and no amount of passion makes you produce good or bad work.

The only thing that matters is the final result.

I make the distinction between pro and amateur SOLELY on the basis of the craftsman-like skills the pro possesses that many amateurs do not. This has more to do with entrepreneurship and other basic business behaviors that are not a factor in the final work itself, but in how well you work in a business environment and can meet the standards set by a client.

Unfortunately, many amateurs can produce only when they want to, but not when other people want them to. They cannot produce on demand. I have only once had a good experience hiring a fan creator (and by this I mean someone with NO previous experience being paid: I&#039;ve had good luck hiring semi-pros, i.e. people with paid credits, but who are not yet making a living at art.) Others cracked under the pressure.

It&#039;s one thing to do whatever you want whenever you want in the comfort of your home with only your friends to comment on your work, and quite another thing to have to perform to the standards of a client whose decisions about your work can be alarmingly arbitrary. A pro can do that. Not everyone can.

There are many pros who are very passionate about their work, and yet who produce lousy work. There are many fans who are passionate about their work, and still produce lousy work.

And it really doesn&#039;t have anything to do with pro or fan. Being a pro is about the PROFESSION. I don&#039;t presume to be a professional plumber or carpenter just because I can fix a leak or hammer a nail. I don&#039;t demand to be let in the union just because I have skills. 

Amateur doesn&#039;t mean bad, and pro doesn&#039;t mean good.

And enthusiasm isn&#039;t enough.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I have given this a little more consideration. And this is more of a follow up to my email conversation with Sarah than a direct response to her thoughtful post.</p>
<p>People keep conflating good with professional. And they get wrapped around the axle when the obvious is pointed out to them: that the definition of a professional is in the meaning of PROFESSION.</p>
<p>It follows that a person MUST make money at their vocation in order to be a professional. But money has absolutely NOTHING to do with being any good.</p>
<p>Many semi-pros and hobbyists get angry when the obvious &#8211; a professional is someone with a PROFESSION &#8211; is pointed out to them, because they think that implies their work is no good and that they are unprofessional in their conduct or the quality of their work.</p>
<p>The money you are paid, and how well you exhibit basic craftsmanship skills has nothing to do with whether or not your work is Real Art. It simply means you get paid to perform your craft to the basic standards set by the client.</p>
<p>This then gives many hobbyists and semi-pros the in to make the dig that many professionals produce bad work, and the real mark of good work is passion.</p>
<p>No, it isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>The only mark of good work is the final result.</p>
<p>Many very passionate people produce lousy work, and cannot see past their personal vision. They cannot see what others see.</p>
<p>Many craftsman-like professionals produce bad work, even though they dutifully meet deadlines and are paid very well.</p>
<p>The entire argument around professional versus amateur has more to do with bruised egos than anything else.</p>
<p>Pros remark that fans produce crap, and fans remark that pros produce crap and that fans could do better if they were just given the chance.</p>
<p>No amount of money and no amount of passion makes you produce good or bad work.</p>
<p>The only thing that matters is the final result.</p>
<p>I make the distinction between pro and amateur SOLELY on the basis of the craftsman-like skills the pro possesses that many amateurs do not. This has more to do with entrepreneurship and other basic business behaviors that are not a factor in the final work itself, but in how well you work in a business environment and can meet the standards set by a client.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, many amateurs can produce only when they want to, but not when other people want them to. They cannot produce on demand. I have only once had a good experience hiring a fan creator (and by this I mean someone with NO previous experience being paid: I&#8217;ve had good luck hiring semi-pros, i.e. people with paid credits, but who are not yet making a living at art.) Others cracked under the pressure.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s one thing to do whatever you want whenever you want in the comfort of your home with only your friends to comment on your work, and quite another thing to have to perform to the standards of a client whose decisions about your work can be alarmingly arbitrary. A pro can do that. Not everyone can.</p>
<p>There are many pros who are very passionate about their work, and yet who produce lousy work. There are many fans who are passionate about their work, and still produce lousy work.</p>
<p>And it really doesn&#8217;t have anything to do with pro or fan. Being a pro is about the PROFESSION. I don&#8217;t presume to be a professional plumber or carpenter just because I can fix a leak or hammer a nail. I don&#8217;t demand to be let in the union just because I have skills. </p>
<p>Amateur doesn&#8217;t mean bad, and pro doesn&#8217;t mean good.</p>
<p>And enthusiasm isn&#8217;t enough.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Colleen		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2983</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colleen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2983</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s certainly an interesting subject, and I am glad it&#039;s come up here. Thanks for writing this post!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s certainly an interesting subject, and I am glad it&#8217;s come up here. Thanks for writing this post!</p>
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		<title>
		By: scribblerworks		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2009/12/29/guest-blog-sarah-beach-on-the-metaphysics-of-creativity/#comment-2982</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[scribblerworks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=5021#comment-2982</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Allan, it&#039;s been quite a long time since I read the whole of Clynes&#039; work, so I&#039;d have to dig it off the shelf to be specific.  But I don&#039;t think he delved into matters of personal preference about the actual content of what he played for the subjects.  His initial interest was trying to map the emotions.  The &quot;internal signature&quot; of music was a secondary matter that grew out of his initial research.

As for the matter of &quot;passion for the work&quot; ... yes, it is a tricksy matter, which is something Colleen and I were sliding all over in our email conversation.  There&#039;s a fine line distinction there somewhere, but it isn&#039;t easy to find.  That said, in Hollywood, I see a lot of writing where the writers are not really engaged with their story, but are rather putting it together with the elements they know will &quot;play well&quot; or they&#039;ve been ordered to put in, and something in the heart of the work suffers.

Heh... it&#039;s one of the reasons I put &quot;metaphysics&quot; in the title -- it&#039;s really hard to pin down. :D]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Allan, it&#8217;s been quite a long time since I read the whole of Clynes&#8217; work, so I&#8217;d have to dig it off the shelf to be specific.  But I don&#8217;t think he delved into matters of personal preference about the actual content of what he played for the subjects.  His initial interest was trying to map the emotions.  The &#8220;internal signature&#8221; of music was a secondary matter that grew out of his initial research.</p>
<p>As for the matter of &#8220;passion for the work&#8221; &#8230; yes, it is a tricksy matter, which is something Colleen and I were sliding all over in our email conversation.  There&#8217;s a fine line distinction there somewhere, but it isn&#8217;t easy to find.  That said, in Hollywood, I see a lot of writing where the writers are not really engaged with their story, but are rather putting it together with the elements they know will &#8220;play well&#8221; or they&#8217;ve been ordered to put in, and something in the heart of the work suffers.</p>
<p>Heh&#8230; it&#8217;s one of the reasons I put &#8220;metaphysics&#8221; in the title &#8212; it&#8217;s really hard to pin down. 😀</p>
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