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	Comments on: Marvel Comics vs Jack Kirby Decision: Marvel Wins	</title>
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		<title>
		By: MUST READ: Copyhype on the Kirby Case &#124; A Distant Soil by Colleen Doran		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9693</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MUST READ: Copyhype on the Kirby Case &#124; A Distant Soil by Colleen Doran]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:35:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9693</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] MStein popped in with some comments to the previous Kirby post, with a look at how the Kirby case differs significantly from the Superman rights dispute. A pdf of [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] MStein popped in with some comments to the previous Kirby post, with a look at how the Kirby case differs significantly from the Superman rights dispute. A pdf of [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Colleen Doran		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9692</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colleen Doran]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 15:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9692</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Mstein

Thank you so much for your perspective. For many years lots of people (including me) did not understand the way the 1909 copyright law was applied to WFH. I think most creators believed that there was no WFH provision until 1976, which is (in a way) true, but does not alter how the 1909 law is applied.

I&#039;ve asked an acquaintance of mine, a noted IP attorney, to take a look at this and I am watching his blog like a hawk to see if he comments. Oh, wait, just double checked, he just did:

http://www.copyhype.com/2011/08/marvel-v-kirby-work-for-hire-and-copyright-termination/

I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t see an out for the Kirby estate legally, but like most fans, would hope there is some kind of gift or other benefit that could be granted to the Kirby estate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Mstein</p>
<p>Thank you so much for your perspective. For many years lots of people (including me) did not understand the way the 1909 copyright law was applied to WFH. I think most creators believed that there was no WFH provision until 1976, which is (in a way) true, but does not alter how the 1909 law is applied.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve asked an acquaintance of mine, a noted IP attorney, to take a look at this and I am watching his blog like a hawk to see if he comments. Oh, wait, just double checked, he just did:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.copyhype.com/2011/08/marvel-v-kirby-work-for-hire-and-copyright-termination/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.copyhype.com/2011/08/marvel-v-kirby-work-for-hire-and-copyright-termination/</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t see an out for the Kirby estate legally, but like most fans, would hope there is some kind of gift or other benefit that could be granted to the Kirby estate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mstein609		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9691</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mstein609]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:40:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9691</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@DCM - As Chester Karrass put it, you don&#039;t get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

Having read the decision, I fail to see how Marvel altered history.  You may argue that Marvel should have behaved similarly to DC in they way they gave more money to the Siegel and Schuster families before they had any legal obligation to do so.  You may argue the law should have been different all along and should have given more rights to the artist.  The law was changed in 1976 to do just that to a limited extent.  Unfortunately, it only applied to grant of copyright.  The work-for-hire provisions under the old law remained intact.

The Kirby case hinged on whether Kirby created the work on his own or was asked to do it in exchange for money upon delivery of an acceptable product.  The decision holds that there was a large body of settled law  regarding the defining features of work for hire under the 1909 statute, and that Marvel presented sufficient evidence - with no valid evidence presented to the contrary - that Kirby&#039;s work constituted work for hire as the law defined it.  It is instructive to read and compare the decision in the Superman case, which explained why Action #1 was not a work for hire and therefore could have the assignments terminated under the 1976 law as the Kirby family contended they should have been able to do.  See:

http://uncivilsociety.org/siegel_superman_032608.pdf

The work-for-hire provision may be unfair, especially when the entity commissioning the work is free to pay nothing if they don&#039;t like it, but gets all the rights once they accept and pay for it.  But I&#039;d say that&#039;s really the fault of Congress, not the court.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DCM &#8211; As Chester Karrass put it, you don&#8217;t get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.</p>
<p>Having read the decision, I fail to see how Marvel altered history.  You may argue that Marvel should have behaved similarly to DC in they way they gave more money to the Siegel and Schuster families before they had any legal obligation to do so.  You may argue the law should have been different all along and should have given more rights to the artist.  The law was changed in 1976 to do just that to a limited extent.  Unfortunately, it only applied to grant of copyright.  The work-for-hire provisions under the old law remained intact.</p>
<p>The Kirby case hinged on whether Kirby created the work on his own or was asked to do it in exchange for money upon delivery of an acceptable product.  The decision holds that there was a large body of settled law  regarding the defining features of work for hire under the 1909 statute, and that Marvel presented sufficient evidence &#8211; with no valid evidence presented to the contrary &#8211; that Kirby&#8217;s work constituted work for hire as the law defined it.  It is instructive to read and compare the decision in the Superman case, which explained why Action #1 was not a work for hire and therefore could have the assignments terminated under the 1976 law as the Kirby family contended they should have been able to do.  See:</p>
<p><a href="http://uncivilsociety.org/siegel_superman_032608.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">http://uncivilsociety.org/siegel_superman_032608.pdf</a></p>
<p>The work-for-hire provision may be unfair, especially when the entity commissioning the work is free to pay nothing if they don&#8217;t like it, but gets all the rights once they accept and pay for it.  But I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s really the fault of Congress, not the court.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sequential &#124; Canadian Comics News &#38; Culture		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9687</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sequential &#124; Canadian Comics News &#38; Culture]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9687</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] At immediate issue is the recent decision of a U.S. District Court to deny the Kirby heirs their right to the copyrights of the characters and stories Kirby created. The judge denied the family&#8217;s claims on the grounds that Kirby produced the work as an employee of Marvel Comics. (Colleen Doran has an excellent summary as well as the actual legal document of the decision here.) [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] At immediate issue is the recent decision of a U.S. District Court to deny the Kirby heirs their right to the copyrights of the characters and stories Kirby created. The judge denied the family&#8217;s claims on the grounds that Kirby produced the work as an employee of Marvel Comics. (Colleen Doran has an excellent summary as well as the actual legal document of the decision here.) [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: DCM		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9685</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DCM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9685</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Do we need anymore evidence that we&#039;re living in a world where individual rights are ignored at the whim of corporations? Marvel owes everything to the family, and yet, they did everything they could to prevent them from getting what they deserve....why? because corporations can do whatever they want, even alter history.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we need anymore evidence that we&#8217;re living in a world where individual rights are ignored at the whim of corporations? Marvel owes everything to the family, and yet, they did everything they could to prevent them from getting what they deserve&#8230;.why? because corporations can do whatever they want, even alter history.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Funnybook Babylon &#183; Archives &#183; Avenging the Week &#8211; SDCC Leftovers		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9684</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Funnybook Babylon &#183; Archives &#183; Avenging the Week &#8211; SDCC Leftovers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9684</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] to judgment as a matter of law. Read the decision (pdf) here and commentary from Colleen Doran here. This is a tragedy for the Kirby family, but it&#8217;s hard to imagine a different [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] to judgment as a matter of law. Read the decision (pdf) here and commentary from Colleen Doran here. This is a tragedy for the Kirby family, but it&#8217;s hard to imagine a different [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: The Comic Books and Comic Book movies thread - Page 91 - Los Angeles Kings Hockey Fan Forum		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9683</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Comic Books and Comic Book movies thread - Page 91 - Los Angeles Kings Hockey Fan Forum]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Aug 2011 17:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9683</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...]    After the estate of Jack Kirby just got screwed by Marvel Marvel Comics vs Jack Kirby Decision: Marvel Wins &#124; A Distant Soil by Colleen Doran  the only way to get Marvel to change is to hit them in their pocket book simular to what Neal [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;]    After the estate of Jack Kirby just got screwed by Marvel Marvel Comics vs Jack Kirby Decision: Marvel Wins | A Distant Soil by Colleen Doran  the only way to get Marvel to change is to hit them in their pocket book simular to what Neal [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: The Jack Kirby Settlement&#8230; &#124; The Grizzly Bomb		</title>
		<link>https://adistantsoil.com/2011/07/28/marvel-comics-vs-jack-kirby-decision-marvel-wins/#comment-9671</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Jack Kirby Settlement&#8230; &#124; The Grizzly Bomb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adistantsoil.com/?p=9864#comment-9671</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] Colleen Doran, on her Distant Soil page provided these screen grabs from the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Colleen Doran, on her Distant Soil page provided these screen grabs from the [&#8230;]</p>
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